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Topic: SSE3



  
 SSE3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
SSE3, also known by its Intel code name Prescott New Instructions (PNI), is the third iteration of the SSE instruction set for the IA-32 architecture.
If you want to get more detailed information, go to The SSE3 Overview by Intel (tm).
MONITOR, MWAIT - These optimize multi-threaded applications, giving processors with Hyper-Threading better performance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSE3   (499 words)

  
 Technical Advances and Developer Advantages - Intel® Software Network
Prescott New Instructions Software Developer’s Guide exhaustively documents the SSE3 instruction set prior to the release of the new instructions associated with Intel&; EM64T, which are documented in the Intel&; Extended Memory 64 Technology Software Developer’s Guide.
SSE3 Instructions: This advanced instruction set, which developers can implement in large part automatically using Intel compilers, is designed to improve performance.
Using Streaming SIMD Extensions 3 in Algorithms with Complex Arithmetic is an application note that uses a code implementation of the Mandelbrot set to demonstrate the efficiencies of SSE3.
http://developer.intel.com/cd/ids/developer/asmo-na/eng/dc/threading/hyperthreading/167050.htm?page=4   (272 words)

  
 Will SSE3 be optional for Tiger x86? - OSx86 Project Forum
However, as this Apple document on the Intel transition states, "SSE3 is an optional hardware feature on MacOS X for Intel.
If you wish to use SSE3 features, you must detect them first, similar to how you are required to check for AltiVec." The paper goes on to reveal that, "SSE is not available in any format for MacOS X for PowerPC and AltiVec is not available for MacOS X for Intel.
This parallels what already should be (is) done for AltiVec and just re-establishs a good coding practice as new x86 extensions are possible in the future.
http://forum.osx86project.org/index.php?showtopic=210   (2121 words)

  
 Hardware - SSE Performance Programming
SSE3 is the most recent, and is an optional feature of machines supported by MacOS X for Intel.
SSE3 is an optional hardware feature on MacOS X for Intel.
SSE3 is an optional hardware feature on MacOS X for Intel and is not enabled by default on gcc-4.0.
http://developer.apple.com/hardware/ve/sse.html   (9708 words)

  
 ChipGeek Features: Intel's upcoming SSE3 extensions
If SSE3 could incorporate an ability to access the FPU functionality without storing results on the FPU stack or register space then that would be a tremendous step forward in computing.
SSE3 will also likely include additional instructions used to convey compile-time information about HyperThreading and out-of-order execution code streams.
SSE2, for example, represents the single greatest advance in IA-32 architecture since the FPU was brought directly onto the CPU die, thereby creating a single piece of silicon with both integer and floating point support.
http://www.geek.com/procspec/features/sse3   (3877 words)

  
 Rage3D Discussion Area - amd 64 with sse3
SSE3 doesn't require chipset support and the revised memory controller is on the MPU die rather than on the mobo's chipset so it shouldn't be an issue either.
As with any instruction set, the software being run has to include these instructions for any MPU to utilize them and see performance gains.
There is very little software that supports SSE3.
http://www.rage3d.com/BOARD/printthread.php?t=33805588   (794 words)

  
 The Microarchitecture of the Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor on 90nm Technology
Since the main speed limiter of this code is the number of execution uops (7 for SSE2, 4 for SSE3), the new instructions can improve complex multiplications by up to 75%.
SSE3 adds lddqu to solve the cache line split problem on 128-bit unaligned loads.
The code sequence above shows how to implement a double-precision complex multiplication using SSE2 only or with the new SSE3 instructions, where mem_X contains one complex operand and mem_Y the other; mem_Z is used to store the complex result; and xmm7 is a constant used to change the sign of one data element.
http://www.intel.com/technology/itj/2004/volume08issue01/art01_microarchitecture/p06_sse.htm   (1944 words)

  
 MBReview.com - The #1 Source For Motherboard Reviews!
The bulk of the SSE3 instructions all allow for more optimized coding schemes for software, which should increase overall performance of the given software.
As time progresses, we will see software that has been optimized for SSE3, and only then will we be able to realize the performance enhancements that it brings.
When the Pentium IV originally debuted a few years back, Intel was touting it as a multimedia powerhouse, and from the added instruction set that we are seeing here, it seems Intel is still pushing to keep a full head of steam in the multimedia area of their desktop processors.
http://www.mbreview.com/prescott32-5.php   (1180 words)

  
 Maxxuss SSE2 & AntiTPM Patches for 10.4.1 v0.5c
The reason is that you can replace all relevant system files with SSE3 versions, which is useful if you are using for example the original deadmoo VMWare image or another installation with SSE2 patches applied.
Mach kernel with SSE3 emulation for CPUs with SSE2
I replaced SSE3 instructions (FISTT) with their more-or-less equivalent SSE2 analog (FIST).
http://maxxuss.hotbox.ru/patch.html   (997 words)

  
 AMD Processor Support Forum -> K8 to Receive SSE3
I wouldn't go that far as to call it that, from what have seen through the years is that Intel has tremendous muscle in the software segment.
Right now, AMD has successfully forced intel to adopt x86-64 design, which is a victory.
http://forums.amd.com/index.php?showtopic=8704   (1681 words)

  
 2CPU.com Discussion Forums - TMPGEnc 3.0 to support Prescott (SSE3)
The Intel Streaming SIMD Extension 3 (SSE3) is a set of multimedia extension instructions included in the new HT technology Intel Pentium4 produced with 90 nm techniques.
The new TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress currently in development (first release planned for Summer 2004) is optimized for the latest Intel Pentium 4 processor with HT Technology and also the previous Pentium4.
Compared to previous versions, software optimized for the SSE3 realize better process performances and efficiency.
http://forums.2cpu.com/printthread.php?s=32a22b32908b68e830f0f679984631a2&threadid=47695   (284 words)

  
 apcmag.com: Intel Pentium 4 SSE3 Processor
Prescott represents the first desktop processor from Intel to be built on the 90 nanometer process and is the second last call for the flagging Pentium 4 processor — the final swansong will come when Tejas is released in 2005.
SSE2 focused heavily on integer performance, and the 13 new instructions introduced in SSE3 will be of most use to 3D developers working with vectors or scalars.
AMD is enjoying strong sales with its Athlon 64-based line, a trend we expect to continue to gather momentum as the 64-bit version of Windows XP for Extended Systems reaches gold and hits the shelves.
http://www.apcmag.com/apc/v3.nsf/0/4C5CD99C1A07428CCA256E5F0014106B   (1070 words)

  
 x86: Information From Answers.com
The SSE3 instruction set included on the new Athlons are only lacking a couple of the instructions that Intel designed for HyperThreading, since the Athlon 64 doesn't support HyperThreading; however SSE3 is still recognized in software as being supported on the platform.
AMD later licensed the SSE3 instruction set for its latest (E) revision Athlon 64 processors.
Introduced in 2004 along with the Prescott revision of the Pentium 4 processor, SSE3 added specific memory and thread-handling instructions to boost the performance of Intel's HyperThreading technology.
http://www.answers.com/x86   (2853 words)

  
 VMware Knowledge Base - Answer
VirtualCenter identifies processors with the SSE3 instructions and those without the SSE3 instructions as incompatible for migration with VMotion because the SSE3 instructions are application-level instructions that access the CPU directly and bypass the virtualization layer.
If user-level applications running in a virtual machine that use the SSE3 instructions were to be migrated with VMotion from CPUs that do support the SSE3 instructions, to CPUs that do not support the SSE3 instruction, they would likely fault on an undefined instruction code.
Additional details regarding the SSE3 instructions can be found at:
http://www.vmware.com/support/kb/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1993   (287 words)

  
 BetaNews AMD Updates Opteron, Adds SSE3
The new models also incorporate the SSE3 software instructions Intel previously added to its chips that speed up multimedia operations such as encoding video.
AMD spanks Intel in all of the benchmarks except the video/audio but now with the added SSE3......
I guess no, because most of the wins Intel CPUs get in multimedia benchmarks are because of their high clock rates, not because of their SSEx support.
http://www.betanews.com/article/AMD_Updates_Opteron_Adds_SSE3/1108405791   (484 words)

  
 Ace's Hardware - General Message Board
SSE3 probably just requires some aesthetical changes to the Northwood SSE/SSE2 circuitry so it cannot justify that huge mass of unexplained transistors.
I don't think so, processors which implemented the MMX, SSE and SSE2 instruction sets all sported one (or more) vector units.
http://www.aceshardware.com/forums/read_post.jsp?id=115063088&forumid=1   (109 words)

  
 QC#7082: Add SSE3 / PNI instructions to the BASM
FYI: they have been referred to as the "SSE3" instructions as well as the "PNI" (for Prescott New Instructions) instructions.
With that in mind, QC 7430 (added after I saw the "assume [nothing]" response above) deals with the CPU debugger's SSE3 capabilities.
Add SSE3 / PNI instructions to the BASM
http://qc.borland.com/qc/wc/qcmain.aspx?d=7082   (166 words)

  
 nV News Forums - Intel Prescott Launch Date Set!
Monday, the 2nd of February will be a big day for Intel, as the company unveils 7 new desktop microprocessors on that date.
On the 15th of February the world’s largest microprocessor supplier with align “Northwood” and “Prescott” pricing, as a result, the chips with 512KB of cache and 1MB of cache will be priced equally.
Source close to Intel Corporation said the company plans to formally launch its 90nm desktop processors code-named Prescott on the 2nd of February, 2004.
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/printthread.php?t=21832   (528 words)

  
 Geek.com Geek News - Opteron, Athlon 64 to get SSE3 with next stepping
With SSE3, an on-die memory controller, and a superior HyperTransport bus design, Opteron stands to reverse this trend of Intel multimedia dominance.
In addition to gaining SSE3 support, a gaggle of other refinements are also on the way.
While the current Athlon 64 and Opteron lines all support MMX, SSE, and SSE2 instructions, AMD trails Intel's implementation of SSE3.
http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2004Mar/gee20040303024101.htm   (4807 words)

  
 AnandTech: AMD K8 E4 Stepping: SSE3 Performance
With SSE3, Intel added 10 new instructions targeted at SIMD as well as 3 other instructions that don't touch the SSE registers (fisttp, monitor, mwait).
The float to integer conversion is rather obvious in function, but some of the other instructions are a little mysterious.
In an MP environment (with more memory bandwidth), the Opteron has a greater potential for improvement with SSE3.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2350   (945 words)

  
 AnandTech: Industry Update - Q4-2004: AMD adds SSE3 Support, Intel's 925/915 not selling and more
Revision E includes even more bug fixes and performance improvements over those we found in Revision D, including support for the 13 new instructions that were added with Prescott, more commonly known as SSE3.
As we discovered most recently, AMD's 90nm CPUs are of a brand new revision that featured a number of bug fixes and performance improvements.
The performance enhancements that go along with Revision E chips include some optimizations to the Athlon 64's memory controller.
http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2264&p=3   (910 words)

  
 X-bit labs - Hardware news - Intel Pentium 4 with SSE3 "Prescott" Pushed into 2004.
This time we should wait for something like Intel Pentium 4 with SSE3 technology, since the anticipated Prescott New Instructions got the SSE3 name.
Pricing of the Intel Pentium 4 processors with SSE3 technology will be $637, $417, $278 and $218 at launch, but will be cut to $417, $278, $218 and $178 for 3.40GHz, 3.20GHz, 3.00GHz and 2.80GHz parts respectively on
X-bit labs - Hardware news - Intel Pentium 4 with SSE3 "Prescott" Pushed into 2004.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20031015125924.html   (433 words)

  
 FAQ - OSx86
The Intel Developer Kit version of OS X is also compiled with SSE3 support.
The release version of OS X for Intel might not need SSE3, but the original (unmodified) Dev Kit Install DVD requires SSE3 to function.
The kernel can be patched to allow Rosetta to work on SSE2 CPUs by translating SSE3 instructions on the fly.
http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/FAQ   (1719 words)

  
 Overclockers Forums - Is there a SSE3 gromac comming soon?
I think it really depends on how much better SSE3 is than SSE2 - the benefits will have to outweigh the time spent coding SSE3 into the core.
So since we're getting the same PPD for both more or less, I see no advantage for Stanford to bother with SSE3 in an effort to maximize the hardware performance for those of us with cutting edge machines.
So Stanford raised the Tinker points so they would get the same PPD for Tinkers as Gromacs.
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=317139   (920 words)

  
 Lazy Assembler (LZASM)
Support MMX, SSE, SSE2, SSE3 (PNI), 3DNow!Pro instructions.
- support SSE, SSE2, SSE3 (PNI), 3DNow!Pro instructions
http://lzasm.hotbox.ru   (163 words)

  
 [Tinymux] Pre-built binaries of TinyMUX not optimized for AMD chips.
Certain AMD chips support MMX, SSE, and SSE3 properly (even licensing these things from Intel), so why not just stomp on the GenuineIntel test and let the rest of the code determine the chip's capabilities.
Even though AMD and other processors have followed Intel's format for the EAX=1 CPUID, the code generated by the Intel Compiler does not look at those bits unless the chip is GenuineIntel.
There are two Perl scripts on the Internet that do this narrowly for a library contained in Intel's Fortran 7.1 and Fortran 8.1 compiler products.
http://www.tinymux.com/pipermail/tinymux/2005-July/000418.html   (451 words)

  
 AMDZone :: The real #1 source for AMD news, reviews, and info. Est 1998.
BTW adding SSE3 must have been an rather easy task compared to SSE2 etc. Because SSE3 allows the K8 to do things, it could already do (with micro ops) but didn't have x86 instructions supporting it.
Is that independend from adding the SSE3 instructions?
http://www.amdzone.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1357   (1128 words)

  
 OSX x86 on any PC project 
The SSE3 requirement, can be bypassed via quite complex modifications, and this case several kernels will not work since they REALLY need SSE3.
Of course this is only a short-term solution, since it is rather instable, and particularly slow.
simply install VMare on ANYPC, and this application will emulate what needs to be (GMA900, SSE3...)
http://homepage.mac.com/okkibokki/iblog/B377254671/C213271828/E20050815130224   (330 words)

  
 CoolTechZone Forums - AMD Readies New Opteron Processor for 1000MHz HT Bus
SSE3 includes 13 new instructions developed for some specific tasks.
The forthcoming AMD Opteron processor 252 will be clocked at 2.60GHz, will incorporate dual-channel PC3200 memory controller, 1MB of cache and SSE3 technology, something that only Intel Corp.’s chips have sported so far.
SSE3 is an instruction set found in Intel Pentium 4 processors code-named Prescott.
http://www.cooltechzone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=228&mode=threaded   (632 words)

  
 HCL - OSx86
Rosetta is still not working but as I have SSE3 I might copy the original files back.
See the x86 software page for programs you can run without Rosetta.
Sound is fuzzy for me, but could be an electrical problem.
http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/HCL   (8075 words)

  
 Hardware - SIMD Executive Summary
On ia-32 the vector architecture extensions have been gradually introduced, at first as the Intel MultiMedia eXtensions (MMX) and then later as the Intel Streaming SIMD Extensions (SSE, SSE2, SSE3).
http://developer.apple.com/hardware/ve/summary.html   (755 words)

  
 Streaming SIMD Extensions 3 Enabling for the Microsoft .NET* Compiler 2003 - Intel® Software Network
Fortunately, you can include SSE3 assembly instructions in optimized functions in your application with support from either the Microsoft Macro Assembler (MASM) or the freeware Netwide Assembler (also known as NASM).
The Streaming SIMD Extensions 3 instructions (also known as SSE3) add important new capabilities to the Intel&; Pentium 4 E processor (code-named Prescott).
Support for SSE3 with the Microsoft Macro Assembler
http://support.intel.com/cd/ids/developer/asmo-na/eng/167057.htm?page=1   (182 words)

  
 SSE3 Optimizations? - Neowin.net
Also, what sort of programs benefit the most with SSE3 optimizations?
And, on a related note, what kind of code benefits the most from using Intel C++ rather than the built in VS.NET C++?
Does Visual Studio.NET 2003 EA support SSE3 optimizations?
http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?&act=ST&f=47&t=148110&view=getlastpost   (386 words)

  
 [TweakNews.net Forum] :: View topic - prescotts
I would say that it is. I have a friend that has a 3.2 EE with the 2mb of cache and my computer a 2.6 running @ 3.2 wiht only 512 cache cannot compare with the performance of his rig, even though they are running at the same frequency.
Excellent, so now that you know this, you can answer my question.
Intel Pentium 4 SSE3 “Prescott” 3.20GHz - $278 [1M cache]
http://www.tweaknews.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1264   (1908 words)

  
 My CPU has support for SSE2, SSE3 instructions? - TalkingSoft.com Forums
SSE2 has itself been extended by SSE3, also known as "Prescott New Instructions", introduced by Intel to the Pentium 4 in early 2004.
My CPU has support for SSE2, SSE3 instructions?
SSE2 was first introduced by Intel with the initial version of the Pentium 4 in 2001.
http://www.click-now.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=271   (439 words)

  
 VR-Zone : Technology Beats - AMD Opteron x52 Series w/ SSE3 & 1Ghz HTT
Performance-enhancing features include support for SSE3 software instructions as well as an increase in the HyperTransport performance through an increase in bus frequency, to 1GHz.
Server and workstation systems featuring the AMD Opteron processor will soon be enabled with AMD PowerNow!(TM) technology with Optimized Power Management.
AMD has made significant enhancements to the AMD Opteron processor with these new models.
http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=1735&s=1   (862 words)

  
 Elite Bastards - View topic - AMD K8 E4 Stepping: SSE3 Performance - We find it offensive that you find it offensive.
One such feature is the inclusion of SSE3 instructions.
Intel introduced SSE3 as Prescott New Instructions last year.
As you may or may not be aware, the recently launched Opteron x52 processors also introduced a new stepping, with features that will be making their way into the mainstream Athlon64 line in the future.
http://www.elitebastards.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9149   (298 words)

  
 Transmeta demos 2 GHz Efficeon processor TG Daily
The Efficeon 2 will also support the SSE3 instruction set, which was introduced earlier this year in Intel's 90 nm Pentium 4 processor and increases performance in certain applications such as video decompression.
The processor will be clocked at 2 GHz and support Intel's SSE3 instruction set.
The TM8800 processors are currently manufactured by Fujitsu, which has allowed Transmeta to increase the performance of the chip, Ditzel said.
http://www.tgdaily.com/2004/10/06/transmeta_demos_2_ghz_efficeon_processor   (370 words)

  
 Easily and NATIVELY install OS X x86 on your PC!
considering my athlon x2 supports sse3 i should be able to do a native install with rosetta and all the other feature enabled, anyone know of a good how-to.....
What's all the hubub about programs not functioning without SSE3?
SSE3 is NOT required (but you can do more if you've got it).
http://digg.com/apple/Easily_and_NATIVELY_install_OS_X_x86_on_your_PC_   (4032 words)

  
 Leaked, cracked OS X dev kit image running - Engadget
For running ppc apps (not universal binaries) in osx86 you NEED (at this moment, though it may change in a near future) an SSE3 capable CPU.
If you have only an SSE2 machine it will only run universal binaries.
Yes, we'll admit that it is technically possible to have faked these, but it's honestly far more likely from what we know of the communities out there working on this that they've managed to actually get it running.
http://www.engadget.com/2005/08/11/leaked-cracked-os-x-dev-kit-image-running   (4905 words)

  
 Processors - Define SSE2 and SSE3
SSE2 instructions allow software developers to have maximum flexibility to implement algorithms and provide performance enhancements when running software such as MPEG-2, MP3, 3D graphics, etc.
The 13 new instructions in SSE3 are primarily designed to improve thread synchronization and specific application areas such as media and gaming.
The launch of 90 nm process-based Pentium 4 processor introduces the Streaming SIMD Extensions 3 (SSE3), which includes 13 additional SIMD instructions over SSE2.
http://www.intel.com/support/processors/sb/cs-001650.htm   (197 words)

  
 AnandTech - Definitive SUPER PI Competition!! Stress your system!!
1) Technonut: 11m 02s Intel P4 640 Prescott 3.20 Ghz @ 4410 Mhz / Ram 1024Mb D.ch 367.5 Mhz 3-2-2-4 / SSE3 Patched Pi Technonut: 23m 36s Intel P4 640 Prescott 3.20 Ghz @ 4410 Mhz / Ram 1024Mb D.ch 367.5 Mhz 3-2-2-4 / SSE3 Patched Pi
1) Technonut: 26s Intel P4 640 Prescott 3.20 Ghz @ 4410 Mhz / Ram 1024Mb D.ch 367.5 Mhz 3-2-2-4 / SSE3 Patched Pi
1) Technonut: 2m 14s Intel P4 640 Prescott 3.20 Ghz @ 4410 Mhz / Ram 1024Mb D.ch 367.5 Mhz 3-2-2-4 / SSE3 Patched Pi
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=28&threadid=1665178   (1665 words)

  
 SSE3?
The Inquirer reports that Intel will have a new set of instructions to speed processing on its way.
It probably shouldn't be calling SSE3, because unlike SSE and SSE2, these new instructions are supposed to enable and improve hyperthreading rather than floating-point operations.
Hyperthreading can help a lot in the right situation; it can also hurt.
http://www.overclockers.com/tips937   (234 words)

  
 Rage3D Discussion Area - which version of amd64 has sse3?
I need it for my synthetic benchmarks so i can brag about my epenis
I do a lot of video encoding, and most of the encoding programs out there support SSE3 which speeds it up quite a bit.
- - which version of amd64 has sse3?
http://www.rage3d.com/board/printthread.php?t=33800264   (322 words)

  
 Maxxuss releases version 4.0 of SSE3 emulator for OS X x86 :: Hack In The Box :: Keeping Knowledge Free
v4 is a complete rewrite of the SSE3 Emulator.
Maxxuss releases version 4.0 of SSE3 emulator for OS X x86
Maxxuss releases version 4.0 of SSE3 emulator for OS X x86
http://www.hackinthebox.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=18882   (680 words)

  
 SSE2 and SSE3 macros for ml 6.14
You get the best SSE3 info from the Intel manuals.
My fractal code in the Laboratory uses SSE2; you could try that.
Re: SSE2 and SSE3 macros for ml 6.14
http://www.masmforum.com/simple/index.php?topic=850.new   (753 words)

  
 Athlon 64 'E' Series to Support SSE3 - TechIMO News
Even more important is planned optimizations for the memory controller to improve the performance of motherboard chipsets with integrated graphics.
The upcoming AMD San Diego and Venice core AMD64 processors - Athlon 64 FX and Athlon 64 respectively - will feature support for Intel's SSE3 extended intruction set.
Athlon 64 'E' Series to Support SSE3 - TechIMO News
http://www.techimo.com/newsapp/i12333.html   (188 words)

  
 SSE2 and SSE3 information PLEASE READ - OSx86 Project Forum
Is it possible to check for this within Linux?
SSE2 and SSE3 information PLEASE READ - OSx86 Project Forum
Sure, it was far slower than having a real 387 chip next to your 386, but it worked well enough to make apps which *required* a 387 think it was installed.
http://forum.osx86project.org/index.php?showtopic=139   (807 words)

  
 Optimized beta 4.11 users should upgrade now!
Since 4.04 has been released, are these still good optimized programs?
If you do not already know, please use a utility program such as CPU-Z to determine which version is appropriate for your system.
osecw-402-sse3-r2.zip for SSE3 enabled processors (latest versions of P4 and some very recent high end Athlon64's)
http://setiweb.ssl.berkeley.edu/beta/forum_thread.php?id=45   (314 words)

  
 AMD Processor Support Forum -> AMD K8 E4 Stepping SSE3 performance
Next: AMD Opteron 148, DFI LanParty nF4 Ultra-D, 1GB Corsair XMS DDR400 Dual Channel, Radeon X800GTO 128MB DDR, NEC 4550.
But intel will probably spin it as "AMD does not fully support SSE3" and some crap like that.
I think it was more of just trying to integrate the SSE3 into the current design, nothing that would make the price go up much.
http://forums.amd.com/index.php?showtopic=39861   (592 words)

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